Podcast | Nomad Numbers and Slow Travel

Today I chat to Mr Nomad Numbers who sold everything he owned to slow travel the world with his wife, and in doing so, discovered that they could do this and spend significantly less than staying at home and working. They document their travels and all of their cost breakdowns in their blog Nomadnumbers.com. Jump in, this was a fascinating chat!

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Mr Nomad Numbers

On board the podcast today is Mr Nomad Numbers.

Mr and Mrs Nomad Numbers sold everything they owned and began slow traveling the world. They’ve documented their travels and their journey on NomadNumbers.com where they blog anonymously and share their travel destinations, itineraries and meticulously document their costs of travel and living.

They came to the conclusion that the cost of slow traveling the world can actually be much cheaper than staying at home and working. They have been able to spend almost 50% less than when they were living in high cost areas such as San Francisco, by taking advantage of geo arbritrage.

Mr and Mrs Nomad Numbers love writing about personal finance, minimalism and their journey to financial independence and are really on a mission to inspire others to look outside of their comfort zone to live a life true to themselves.

Jump on board, I found this chat fascinating!

mr nomad numbers and mrs noamd numbers


Episode 54: Mr Nomad Numbers

Show Notes

“In June 2018, after some extensive planning, we sold everything and gave notice to our apartment in San Francisco to embark on a nomadic journey. In the first 6 months of our journey, we cut our cost of living in half, reduced our stress level, increased our happiness and well being. We started this blog to share our story and inspire people to think differently about the life they can design for themselves.

Mr and Mrs Nomad Numbers


Episode 54: Mr Nomad Numbers

Nomad Numbers

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Good day. Welcome on board, another episode of the Captain Fire Financial Independence Podcast on board today is Mr. Nomad numbers. The couple behind Nomad Numbers met in California. Mr. Nomad numbers was a software engineer originally from France, and Mrs.

Nomad numbers was living in California in 2018. They basically sold everything they owned and began slow traveling around the world. They’ve documented their travels on nomad numbers.com where they blog anonymously and share their travel destinations, itineraries, and meticulously document their costs of travel and living.

They came to the conclusion that the cost of slow traveling, the world can be much cheaper than the cost of going to work every day, and they’re able to spend almost 50% less than when they [00:03:00] were living in high cost of living areas such as San Francisco. Mr. And Mrs. Nomad numbers are on a mission to inspire.

Others to look outside of their comfort zone and have the courage to live a life true to themselves, not to others. They love writing about personal finance, minimalism, and their journey to financial independence. So Mr. Nomad numbers, welcome to the pod. Hey, you going? Doing Very good. Thanks for having me.

Oh, pleasure’s all mine, mate. Really interesting interview. We’ve got lined up and, slow travel is definitely something that really appeals to me. I just spent a couple of months traveling with my partner around the Philippines in Southeast Asia and we had a wonderful time.

And I know slow travel is definitely one of your passions when you can really soak in the atmosphere. Before we get started though, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and where you’re from?

Mr Nomad Numbers: Sure. So I am from France. Grew up in the Alps in a lovely small town from a [00:04:00] modest family. And then got to enjoy little things in life camping and having very simple experience with my parents. And they taught me, that’s where they started teaching us the value of money early on.

Basically just making sure that we could only spend what we end up earning and not starting to spend our money before earning it. Which has been an interesting impact on my life later on. And also in term of hobbies really like the outdoors, so it’s. Hiking, running, hiking, scuba diving all of that stuff.

Also by growing up in France, I had to start learning how to cook. And I’m also very passionate about bio

Captain Fi: Awesome. So, Mr. Nomad numbers, we all have different ideas about financial independence and fire. There’s many different explanations and it means something a little bit different to everyone.

So what does financial independence mean [00:05:00] to you and your wife?

Mr Nomad Numbers: So that’s a good question. I think for me I don’t think I can answer for her, so just answer for myself. But I think for me, the first things I can think of is having that armor like.

You can wear on and that basically let you take as many risk as you want. So I think since we became five, then we have been able to start working on various projects. And we didn’t have the pressure of having those projects to succeed, at least financially. We could just take as many risk as we want.

So, that’s how we decide to start the blog. Or like later on, the travel apps or the mobile apps have been building around travel stuff. So being at fi at least we were just starting those adventures. And then we don’t have the pressure or say, oh, it has been six months now we want to make sure we generate enough revenue because this is how much hour we’re spending on those.

So I think that’s one side of the coin. The other side I think is also, I think a big [00:06:00] peace of mind especially when times are difficult. So. Because we’re financially independent, then we could tap into geo arbitrage. And during Covid, we were basically in Bali when the pandemic hit, and then we had the option to basically choose where to go during the pandemic.

So we got kind of lucky, but we decided instead of going back home, so as you said, my wife is in the us, I’m from France. So instead of going back to these places, we decided to go to Taiwan, which I have, in retrospect, some of the best choice we could have made because there was no pandemic during, I mean, basically for 20, 20, 20 21, they never had really an issue with the virus.

And because we, this time we have that which we. As all of our friends were kind of stuck at home in lockdowns or some of them were I know that you’re from Australia and some people in Australia also separated from each other because of different states and all of that. So we don’t have to think about that.

So [00:07:00] that’s, I think, where the peace of mind came through I think with being fi. And I think one more thing is also you get the mental space to really start figuring out what you want to do, but with your life, because now you have time to, you have to think about those topics that most people not really think about until they’re really in there, what I will call standard retirement age of 65 or above.

, so I think, yeah, those will be my answer for that.

Captain Fi: I really love that concept, the fire armor, because it really does insulate you against, a lot of things in life. Like a lot of the time I remember being very stressed out about work and retraining simulated checks, worrying about if I’m going to pass them graduating, getting the next level of license, all that kind of jazz.

 And I guess when you put your fire armor on, none of that stuff really matters. I mean, if you did choose to work and for whatever reason , you were fired, it just doesn’t really matter. So I [00:08:00] like that. And I love you talk about using his armor to take risks and, travel and be able to start your business.

Yeah, it’s phenomenal and definitely gives you that peace of mind. On your last point there you talked about mental space to kind of figure out what to do with your lives. It’s interesting, , it can be quite confronting, can’t it?

Mr Nomad Numbers: Yeah, I think actually for Mrs Noman numbers, that has been much more of a challenge than for me.

I think for me, I felt like once I will have the option to stop working, I think I will know what to do with my life, quote, unquote, but for her, it was much more of a challenge. I think it’s might have been because we have different cultures. She grew up in California, in the us and I think the value systems between the US and France seems to be a bit different.

I feel like in France, , if you like to rank your value system, you will probably put friends and family first and work second. And I feel like in the US it’s about the opposite. You focus by your work, your identity first, especially in the first like 10, 20 years of your careers and your friends are [00:09:00] familiar just after that.

So for her it was really important now that she has all of that, Mind space of oh, all of that time actually that she wanted to do something very impactful. And it took us a while to let it go. I think now she’s more realizing that, at the end it’s just being more in the present moment, being lucky to enjoy the life that we have because you never know, how long it’ll last.

But yeah, I think it’s, once you get that, what I’m calling mental space, that’s where you’re starting trying to figuring out, okay, what do I do with my life? And for some people it’s really daunting. They don’t really know because they’ve been working for 10, 20, 30, sometimes 40 years.

It’s when they get to traditional retirement age, they cannot even retire because the only thing they didn’t know how to do was to work. Just kind of sad in some sense. But yes.

Captain Fi: Yeah. I think maybe in Australia, the culture is probably a bit closer to the US there .

I mean, it’s funny most Australians want to display themselves as these sort of happy go lucky larrikin, enjoying recreation outdoorsy type people. [00:10:00] But I reckon we probably put a lot of emphasis on our careers as well when it comes to our social standing. And it’s always one of the first things people ask when you meet each other, oh, what do you do?

And I’ve been going to a few more of these fire meetups people that are interested in the financial independence community. We’ve been sort of getting together for, coffees or beers or whatever and, just making friends, having a chat. And, I like to think that even in that sort of cohort, we tend to be quite mindful about these things, but , it still comes up as one of the first things, oh, what do you do?

It’s almost like people are trying to suss out, what’s your standing in society and how much respect should I give you, kind of thing. Whereas it’s refreshing to hear that European perspective where you really do prioritize family and passions first.

Mr Nomad Numbers: Yeah. And I think that’s why for me work was not never a mean to an end. It was just, I mean it’s going to sound very odd. It was look like you just need the paycheck. Yeah. When I was like trying to explain the intro as I grew up, my parents don’t have a ton of money, so you just go to work and that’s pay for your food and all of the extra you [00:11:00] can save and you can get yourself something nice.

But there was nothing about career. We were never in mentioning, oh, I’m be like you. Person or I would start my company. All of that things, it was much more yeah, you go to work, you go to school and you have a good degree, then you go to work, you get a job. And of course my parents have very basic degrees.

We got much better degrees than they had thanks to the sacrifice they made for us and us being very good students. So our life has been much better. But when I moved to the US and I saw much people who were spending on education and what pressure they was like, oh, because we’re spending like tens of thousands of dollars every quarter on that school, oh, you need to get doctor degree or a very, good pay or like a lawyer degree, very good paying job because you just need to pay your debt.

So it’s very fascinating and very two different approach to social value, I think. Yeah. Yeah.

Captain Fi: It’d interesting dynamic., I mean, still we’ve got hex or a higher education [00:12:00] loan program help where you can pretty much get a government loan, a government backed loan for your education here in Australia.

And it’s just indexed to inflation, so you don’t have the crazy student loan industry like in the us. Which I was learning about through all the headlines recently, which just sort of blew my mind. But yeah, everyone is encouraged to go to. And get a degree here. And it’s kind of funny because you can actually make a lot more money as a trades person in Australia and you can be earning a lot higher income sooner as opposed to going and getting a tertiary qualification and, doing those traditionally high paid roles.

But I guess, it comes down to what you want to do and I think for a lot of people, as you mentioned, that work is just a means to an end. They’re more than happy to, skip a university degree in order to take a sort of a more high paying role. Having said that though, to tend to waste sell money quite a lot in Australia.

So I don’t know what the national savings rate is at the moment, but it’s pretty [00:13:00] shocking. Oh, I see. Yeah, but look getting back on track here. So, can you tell us a little bit about your wife and your journey to financial independence? Yeah,

Mr Nomad Numbers: so we’ve met, graduated in 2004, started to work for couple of years in France, and then in 2008 I start moving to the us where I basically have a 10 year careers and I’ve met her in 2016.

So, basically two years before we decided to embark on that financial journey. So , before I’ve met her, based on my values, I had to find a place to pay rent. I was in San Francisco working the silicone valley as a software engineer. So, I found a place.

The rent was already pretty high. I think it was almost 50% of my paycheck, which is kind of crazy for me since in France you learn to spend just a third of your savings towards your rent. But anyhow, I found that place and then I was just basically saving I was not frugal, but I was just not in the need of buying a bunch of stuff [00:14:00] in general.

So all of the money I had, I was like yeah, saving it and investing some of that through the company I was working for their E S P program, which is basically a employer preferred share program. When you get some of the stock of the company at a discount, I think like 15% discount. So I was like, okay, I’ll just take some of my paycheck, go to that, which later on was quite good in terms of accumulating money and accidentally kind of investing into the stock market .

What I was doing before I met her., my goal was to save, to buy a house kind of because everybody was doing it and house in San Francisco, the Bay Area is like one, two, $3 million kind of investment. I mean 1 million if you’re looking for a condo and if you want a proper house, yeah, you are more on the higher end of that scale.

So yeah, just savings and love hiking and walking. So I didn’t really own a car [00:15:00] in the city. So again very low expense. Then we’ve met and we both love travel. She actually did spend a few years in Australia before we’ve met and then came back to the US and yeah, she was , into travel, which was very nice to have meet a person of her calibers and with those value, because like I was saying earlier, a lot of people in the US tends to be very career focused and so that’s was kind of difficult for me to be with people that spend all of their week and weekends focussing on work.

Everything that you has to offer and all of the wonderful things we have on the planet. So since we’re on the same page, we decided to take a year off initially. And I was asking her because our expectation was like, oh, but taking a year off, you might wanna spend, I dunno, like 100,000 to put on the side.

So sure, we might be able to do that, but then we would’ve to come back. And I was telling you, well, if you have that much money, , I was pretty sure that you can probably travel to three or four years. So that’s how we kind of stumbled into the financial independence because as we were doing research about how does, I think we’re typing things like how much does it cost to [00:16:00] travel the world For a year we starting running into people that were basically doing it forever.

So we were like, oh, how is that possible? So that led us into kind of the mainstream financial independent podcast that we have in the us such as the Mad scientist of course, Mr. Mustache and a few other. So we went through that rabbit hole. So that’s kind of my very long answer on how we get to fi Actually, the journey itself, once we understand about fi, was pretty much done because we were both savers and so our numbers were already pretty close to what we needed.

So, on year two of our dating life, we decided to basically, , start selling everything. We said, Hey, we’ve got enough money let’s do that. So sold all of our stuff, and I have to leave my job. She was able to get a full remote job. So for her, she was able to keep it, which was really nice because our cost of living dropped significantly while she was still working.

And then, yeah, July 1st, 2028, we left [00:17:00] and never looked back to that decision.

Captain Fi: Wow, that’s super exciting to go from, Hey, what’s this FI thing to checking your numbers and realizing you’re actually there. It must have been a pretty exciting moment.

Mr Nomad Numbers: Yeah, that was a bit actually.

 We were like, it’s not going to work. I mean, for me, I’m much more number driven. I was like, oh, sure, it’ll work. And I mean, she’s also number driven, but I was like, yeah, the maths checked out. I’m fine. I think she wanted a bit more of validation. So we did on that second year as we’re planning for it very seriously, we went to a Chitaqua, which kind of a week long seminar where some of those FI bloggers and writers are.

So we got to meet Pete. So Mr. Money Mustache was there, Vicki Robbins the Millionaire Revolution guy. So basically like five or six. Blogger or podcaster or FI folks were there and maybe 20 of us, which were people that were as already fi or planning to become fi. So I think that was the validation.

When we share our numbers, I think Jim, Collins [00:18:00] as well, we wrote the Simple Path to Wealth was there and we share our number with him and what we wanted to do, and he said, you guys are fine. No worries. So then Mrs Nomad Numbers was like Ok, lets do that

Captain Fi: Yeah. Oh, the Chitaqua sounds awesome. I was chatting to jl we were recording a podcast the other day.

Mm-hmm. And I was asking him about the Chitaqua and his eyes lit up. He was so passionate about it. It’s a shame they’re not running anymore. But there is some awesome events that people can get involved in. I think there’s like campfire, there’s Camp Mustache, over in the US and then here closer to Australia.

I recently spoke to Amy Minkley, who lives in Bali, and she runs Fire Freedom Retreats, which is, I guess kind of like an Australian version. So there’s definitely ways Oh, really good yeah. So there’s ways people can get involved. I’m really looking forward to checking one out soon.

So yeah, it’s been a lot of fun getting out of the comfort zone and meeting people.

Mr Nomad Numbers: Yeah, there was actually a few Australian that made it all the way because , that retreat you’re mentioning was the one that gyms Yeah. Started in Ecuador. There have been some that have [00:19:00] been done in Europe, and I feel like even though the one in Ecuador is kind of, I think gyms seems that it’s not going to be leading them, I think there will still be something of that sort.

I cannot really share all of the details, but from talking to some of the organizer, there should be something coming up.,

Captain Fi: yeah, we’ll suss it out and have to put links in the show notes if we do find stuff out because yeah, it’s really exciting. And I think, you kind of mentioned it, just by being able to collaborate and share knowledge with each other, and I guess you get that sort of reassurance and that community you feel safe and you realize, oh, I’m not the only person doing this and I don’t have to learn everything from scratch and reinvent the wheel.

It’s awesome to be able to lean on people that have sort of been doing this for, decades

Mr Nomad Numbers: and , being with your tribe. I think that’s what matter, because maybe you add that issue, like when you are the only one into this and you talk to most of your coworker or your friends, they don’t understand it, so they think you’re crazy.

So there is no really super, it’s no, it’s not going to work. What about this, what about that? But once you’re surrounding yourself about people that get it, it’s so much more powerful. And I think that’s what the [00:20:00] Chiqua was really good at and that’s what definitely convinced my wife that say, okay, yeah, we should do that.

 I would definitely encourage everybody, which is as doubt or only the support system to join any of those kind of seminar. It’s worth the money you put. And it’s a good experience.

Captain Fi: Yeah, I experienced that as well. I was doing an interview also in the Nomad Numbers interview questionnaire and that was one of the questions.

And yeah, it’s not really something that I share with a lot of people with my, close friends and family because the people that I did share my sort of fire aspirations to they just thought I was nuts. I thought I was crazy. And , they just didn’t get it.

When you and your partner decided to sell all of your stuff and travel it made it a heck of a lot easier.

And I know a lot of us have a lot of crap. I probably have, I like to consider myself somewhat of a minimalist, but I certainly have a lot of stuff which I think just goes to show the average Australian has a lot of crap. You talked about minimalism being really important to you and your wife especially [00:21:00] with your goal of travel and slow travel.

Could you talk a little bit about I guess your take on minimalism and why it’s important to you?

Mr Nomad Numbers: Yes. So I think when we discover minimalism I think it was for the minimalist who wrote the book and they have also a very interesting documentary. . I think we’re both not big spenders, but I think it was bringing this to the next level to try to understand why.

It’s good not to spend just for the sake of spending. , so it was definitely important for us from a, an execution standpoint. In order for us to travel, we cannot, just, as you said, you cannot travel with your house. So we really have, by being minimalistic and only carry a few posessions, that really were the one that we loved and we felt were very useful to us.

We were able to do it. It’s also what we learned from minimalism is that because you go from owning, I don’t remember because I was, over the 10 years I was in San f in the same apartment and over time I was accumulated probably like 100 t-shirts. As we were working in tech, you always get [00:22:00] freebies and stuff and I was like, sure, fine.

But it’s okay, I did not even know I have 50 of those stuff. Because you put them in your closet and then you put one more on top. And so yeah, there is It’s just so much overhead. So yeah, you have to think about the time to manage what you’re going to put on when you wake up. Just the time to take care of that stuff.

If you start having cars, if you start having a bunch of stuff in your garage and stuff, like you have to clean and you have. So all of those was increasing overhead that we don’t have to think about to ultimately focus on really what matter to you. Because now when, we woke up, we have I dunno,

a dozen kind of apparel we can each have and put on, and that’s perfect. That can manage with, we like to travel during the summertime, so, , that’s plenty. We once is, needs to be replaced. We get a new one and that’s it. So we feel like we’re also saving, so we’re saving money because we don’t spend on useless stuff.

We save time because we don’t spend on keeping track of all of that stuff and keeping in good shape and all of that. And we use all of that time instead to focus on experience and our relationship as a couple. [00:23:00] So, yeah, I think this is what we got from minimalism and it’s so, life is so much better now than it was before.

Captain Fi: So that really frees up a lot of your bandwidth, I guess, your mental bandwidth and also financial bandwidth. To focus on your experiences, like you just said, you and you love to slow travel. So can you talk to us a little bit about what slow travel is and how you guys travel the world?


Mr Nomad Numbers: So , a short definition for us of slow travel would be to be traveling at a slower pace and in a kind of sustainable fashion. So slower pace. So we like to compare slow travel to fast travel so fast. It was the way we to travel before. we did slow travel . So basically this might , be familiar to, is oh, I take a week, maybe if I’m looking a two weeks vacation, I go to one country and I’m trying to visit everything within that country.

And I spend a lot of time on transportation and on like booking, like tours and all of stuff. So it just super tiring. And [00:24:00] after two weeks we’re like, it’s almost like you need a new vacation. So it’s basically going the complete opposite direction of that. So to give you example, we decided at the beginning that every time we’re going to a place we are going to stay at least minimum four weeks in one city.

And the goal was not to check everything out. The goal was just to live, like local. So basically embracing Yeah, as someone living there. So, of course you’ll do your own groceries because we personally love to cook. You’ll do all of the admin stuff and then Yeah, on the weekends.

Though we try to like to do more things on weekdays and weekends because it’s, everybody do things on weekends, but yeah, on weekdays we just go hiking. Just check out if there is like tourist fair attraction. It’s fine as long as it’s worth doing it. But we want, for instance, purchase booked experience or book tour.

When people bring you to all of the touristy stuff, we just decide. And since we have the time to decide on the the experience. So I think by traveling that way, this is bringing much more authenticity into the quality of your travel experience. You also get [00:25:00] to meet people, though we felt like now we’re more thinking that one month is too short and we’re looking more to stay much longer.

Longer payer maybe three, four or more in one location. So you can get really deeper connection because it takes really times to, to meet people and have a meaningful conversation with them. And then you also reduce your impact into your environment. And also into the travel as well, because we wanted to do that for many years.

I mean, at the end of the month we’re gonna eat five years of slow travel, so you cannot really do that if you do fast travel, you might be able to eat for a year. But it’s not sustainable for more than that because it’s so taxing on your, mental health And your finance of.

Captain Fi: Oh yeah, I can totally relate to that. I used to fly all over the world for work. I used to be a cargo pilot and yeah, we would get time off and we would be able to check out some sort of touristy things at a bit of a surface level. But we were always like, I don’t know, kind of hoping that, there’d be some maintenance issued, we’d get a delay, so we’d [00:26:00] be able to actually see something, rather than just go out for dinner and min crew rest and then, They were off on another leg. So yeah, so I spent a lot of time criss sing and it sort of, for me, it really did turn me off traveling a bit. It felt like a bit of a chore. And so recently when I was able to go and spend a bit of time slow traveling around, in the Philippines and Southeast Asia, it was a lot of fun.

And it really helped. My partner is Filipino, so we were able to really , experience the culture aspect and it was a completely different experience to what I’d had previously for work and previously when I’d fast traveled as well. So yeah, I think it’s definitely a growing trend and it’s an awesome achievement that you can now do post.

I guess this leads me into my next question, which is, so you guys started slow traveling and then you started talking about it on your blog Nomad numbers. So can you tell us a bit about how Nomad numbers came to be? And what do you publish? I mean, are you able to make [00:27:00] a living from travel blogging I mean, how does it work?

Mr Nomad Numbers: So I think back to that mental space conversation we’re having we really wanted a project to spend our time on and as we stumbled into FI, realized , oh, we need to share that with people.

Especially because we were living in the high coast of living in California, and as we started to travel, we realized, oh wow, you can really. travel the world for less than we used to spend just to manage our rent and just going to the office every day. So that’s kind of, it’s, we’re our, we document our journey.

We’re going to show the exact numbers basically of all of the places, we’re visiting. And just show to people that it’s pretty true that as you travel and you tap into geo arbitrage, you can really reduce your spending by a lot. So I think that’s how the blogs came about. And as we have been blogging since pretty much, yeah, 2018, we kind of, Beside covering all of those destination report, which basically we just show you [00:28:00] what we’ve done, what we saw, what we ate, and how much it cost.

We also share kind of the how, which is all of the techniques that we have to basically, we use travel rework because we’re based in the US and we have all of those credit cards, so we don’t pay for our flight, which is reduce our cost significantly. We have ways to get money from ATMs without having to pay fees and blah, blah, blah.

So all of those techniques that people can use or what do we pack in our luggage to slow travel and also the philosophy as well. So we touch on some of those concept like concept minimalism for instance, but also we explain how we decide to buy something, like what’s kind of, our mindset or even our morning routines.

All of those things or how we live as a couple by living 24 7 together, all of those things. So that’s basically the three main pillar. Into the blog. And lately we’ve been adding interviews and that’s well, that’s why I’m very excited to have you soon in our blog as you agreed to be on this, when we also wanted to show people that it’s not only us because of course,[00:29:00] I work in tech high cost of living.

People can always try to put people in compartment and say, oh, for you it might be easier, blah, blah, blah. But we actually realized that we reach out to so many people and people have with different background, different ethnicity, different citizenship, still managed to live a life that they want for themselves, which is basically at the end what the blog is about.

Just inspiring people to through slow travel, to show that people a, if what you want to do is X for us, it’s slow travel. You can just do it. Don’t ask for permission or don’t, just there’s so many ways to really focus of what gets you excited about and and not fully. We want people to not have regret in their life and really live a life that they want for themselves.

So that’s kind of the blog. And in of the income part we’re not living out it for sure. As you probably know a lot of work and it’s so we do make some income from it and I do share the income of the blog, so if people are interested, we can check it out, but it’s definitely a small amount of money compared to the amount of passive income which do generate.

So, we still don’t mine [00:30:00] it. I think it’s good discretionary income but we unfortunately don’t make a living outta it.

Captain Fi: We will get back to the show in a moment, but for now, I wanna ask you a question. Do you have a side hustle? And if you do, is it scalable? My side hustle is building and running websites a form of digital real estate. Now, it might sound tricky to make money online, but really they’re just small online businesses that have low overheads, high margins, and which you can easily scale by outsourcing.

If you’ve ever read the Four Hour Work Week by Tim Ferriss, then you’re on the right track. What I love about websites is just like my investments, they’re working 24 7 to make me richer and I can put as much or as little effort into running them as I like. I can pay a writer to produce a piece of evergreen content, which is then edited and posted by virtual assistant.

Then it can be viewed potentially millions of times and easily updated by my editors over the years to remain relevant. If you want to learn more about this [00:31:00] lucrative side hustle and retraining for the Digital Workforce revolution, then check out my article about making money online and read my review of the E-Business Institute and their online self-paced courses.

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Captain FY listeners can register for free access to some of their resources by following the link in the E-Business Institute review article on captain fy.com. So what are you waiting for? Start learning how to build a portfolio of digital real estate and use websites to make money today.

Another cool thing that I was checking out on your site is a tool that you’ve developed for the Nomad Purse. Would you be able [00:32:00] to explain a little bit about what the Nomad Purse is and how people can use it for slow travel? Sure.

Mr Nomad Numbers: So as we were tracking our expenses, we started doing it with spreadsheet like I’m sure most people do.

And so as a software engineer, I was kind of frustrated every month for the blog, spending like a couple of days to put all the finance. So the tool started as more like a tool for us to make it easier. But now it’s like basically a travel tool for anyone to use. So basically you go to any country you want to track your expense.

The tools let you do three things. So the first thing you capture the expense, it will take care of current conversion and have the right categories to match with kind of travel lifestyle. And then it give you analytics so you can analyze, understand your behaviours. So, ultimately we just wanted to be a companion for everybody that want to travel, especially if you travel in a long period of time.

So then you really get the pulse on your finance. And especially when you go to different country, the tools will let you projects that, oh, you spend one month in Shanghai, you pay that much. Well, did you know that if you stay six months, then [00:33:00] you’re gonna spend, or even a year is how much per year you’re gonna to spend.

So you can then start seeing at a glance kind of the cost of living around the world of all of the place you’ve been. And that was for us, we were like clearly, the US is definitely the highest. And everywhere we’ve been in Europe or in Europe, in Southeast Asia, it’s so much cheaper. And because we use the geo arbitrage.

We went to Australia last year for three months. So Australia definitely much more on the higher end. But if you mix and match with Cambodia or Vietnam or Chiang Ma or even near Taiwan, you can still have a pretty reasonable spending.

Again, that’s what’s kind of the insight we use that tool for. So then , we get a good parts about the geo arbitrage and travel.

Captain Fi: Yeah. That’s awesome. So, with the income that you’re creating from your investments, would you be able to tell us a little bit about what you personally invest in and why?

Mr Nomad Numbers: Yes. So I think we started with the boring investment plan to fi, which was we [00:34:00] read, as I mentioned, we’ve met Jim Collins that wrote The Simple Path to Wealth Book and as basically ough us about finance. So we went from owning individual stocks. As I was mentioning, we both had stocks in the company we work for to moving to low cost index funds.

So I think we started with pretty much most of that being into stocks. I think now we are. Roughly 60% stocks. So low cost index, both on the US and the internationals. So I think vx, U X and V T I, if I’m correct, this with Vanguard, which is very specific to the us just kind of the broker we use.

And then the 40% left, it’s basically 20% in cash ’cause we’re pretty conservative the other 20% into real estate. We want to kind of diversify and we are diversifying even across continent. So some of that’s in the us, some of that is in France. And we have a tiny bit, maybe 1% of crypto kind of that edge.

[00:35:00] And yeah, I think that’s kind of our allocation.

Captain Fi: So, you tend to hold a, slightly larger portion of cash than some people in the fire community would is that just because you wanna smooth your cashflow for traveling or is there any other reason?

Mr Nomad Numbers: So some of that is in taxable and not taxable accounts.

So some of that we don’t have access until we retire, which I’m sure a listener might just say, why are they like holding into cash? This is more like personal preference. I think Mrs Nomad Numbers is much more risk averse and she feels like we’re just going to hit a bad recession soon.

So she’s, I think holding much more than she should into cash for that respect. Expecting, the market to really correct severely. I mean, we’re seeing that since 2018, so who knows what’s going to happen, but I think that’s why we have much more on the taxable accounts. So the one that we have directly access to, I do not remember the ratio between the two, unfortunately top of mind, but we definitely want to have some cash if we want to purchase a property or something, [00:36:00] or think about having a home base somewhere, most likely in Europe in the next few years.

So having cash on the side, I think would be also used for that.

Captain Fi: Yeah, look I’m kind of doing the same thing myself. I’m hoping to get a hobby farm that I’d love to live on here in the Adelaide Hills. And so that’s been my goal for a while, and so I’m, yeah, trying to accumulate a bit of cash.

That would be amazing. Oh, it’s not cheap though, is it? There’s all these expenses with, purchasing and, I don’t know, it’s just part of the course.

Mr Nomad Numbers: Yeah, no, but I mean, the freedom and being in nature and having all of that land and , I mean, I know from reading, because we’ve been exchanging through that interview that you are definitely love gardening and yeah.

Love having space around. So I think that would be, I’m sure you will do quite well if you can get that. Yeah, I have no idea about price, unfortunately, but if you can get that. Yeah,

Captain Fi: yeah, well, there’s a lot of parallels between gardening and finance.

If you, take the time to, or you make the investment into, setting up your garden, you’re conditioning your soil, you get a seedling, you look after it, you keep,[00:37:00] tending it. It’s kind of, I guess like dollar cost averaging in finance. And eventually you get a reward at the end, you get the,

yeah. I think it’s good. It’s really important as well of teaching delayed gratification. So it’s one thing I like to do with any kids or anyone that’s, wanting to learn about money’s, the first step is learning about gardening first. ’cause , it’s a lot more tangible.

But speaking about money, so did you guys have a target FI or fire number and how much do you spend every year?

Mr Nomad Numbers: So we do spend less than 40,000 a year. And that was basically kind of what we had in mind. So I think we, we were very conservative. Were think we were going to spend much more than that, but at the end, I think we started at 30, 35, and I think last year we had that 30,000 we went all crazy.

But I think, yeah, that’s kind of our target, I think traveling around the world. I mean, we stay in Airbnbs. We have kitchens and because we have cooking and stuff, so we don’t definitely have a frugal life. And I think 40,000 [00:38:00] we’re pretty happy with what we’ve got, so we’ll probably stay in that trench for the foreseeable future.

So that was, yeah, I think that was , the target we had in mind when we doing where we’re building our portfolio and reaching our targets.

Captain Fi: Yeah, it’s very similar numbers to myself actually. I think I’m spending about, yeah, around about 35, 30 6,000 and that included a bit of travel as well.

And yeah I think I have a really awesome life. Like I lived this super comfortable life and it’s basically a life of luxury, we’re in sort of this top 1% of wealthy people and yeah, there’s this conception you mentioned it earlier, you were originally planning to spend a hundred thousand dollars a you don’t really need to spend that much to have an awesome lifestyle.

I think by really just focusing on the things that you love. You can really just cut away all of the unnecessary crap.

Mr Nomad Numbers: Yeah, and I mean, I was looking at the breakdown from last year. I think 40% of our spending was, no, it’s what, [00:39:00] it’s in accommodation. So, then the rest was like, really 20% was on food.

I mean, that’s 7,000 bucks and it’s going grocery shopping as well as going out like you. And then there was like 12% in everyday expense, which is basically, data for your phone going to the gym. We take classes , my wife is learning French all of those kind of things.

And then transportation was 10% because again if you do local transportation and we don’t pay for flight, so definitely.

But yeah, there is no mortgage, there is no car payment, there is no Uber Eats all of those like services that are they basically make you save time, but we don’t really need to save our time because we have plenty of time. So, yeah, all of those expenses are gone. So

it’s really hard to think how can you spend more than 40,000? I mean, sure you can even a penthouse and again, have a ton of space that we’re not going to use, and you can spend 100,000 if you like. And a lot of people we interview spend way less than that and they still have a pretty exciting life.[00:40:00]

I’m sure if we get ourself days in a reasonable country, we can reduce that further because then you know, your accommodation costs will go down even lower because you can get a long-term lease and those kind of things. And yeah. So I think if people can already.

Thousand, which is basically having a million in the bank invested into some index funds. I think they have a.

Captain Fi: it’s funny isn’t it? Those little expenses do add up , I ordered did Uber Eats Sundays like? It was just me and a few of my friends, three of us we were just doing some renovations to their house and in their garden.

And yeah, we were really tired and we were just feeling lazy, so I was like, ah, I’ll order it. And it was 30 bucks. And when I checked last, I’m pretty sure a Sunday was like $3 or maybe $4 Uhhuh. Yeah. So it was a huge premium for those services. And we probably shouldn’t have had anyways, unhealthy.

 Anyway, it was a nice little treat. But yeah [00:41:00] I totally with you on there, man. If you’re generating 40 grand a year in passive income, that is an awesome lifestyle. Especially here in Australia. Yep, housing is expensive, but there are ways to make it work. And especially if you’re sharing with a partner it makes it a heck of a lot easier.

And that’s the other thing is that just because you’ve got this passive income and you’ve, quote unquote retired it’s very unlikely that you’re not gonna make. Any extra money. So, I guess the next question I was gonna ask is what does early retirement quote unquote look like?

But for a lot of people it means working on passion projects. And a lot of the time that does produce a bit of extra income. So, I guess I’ll throw the question out to you mate. So what does, quote unquote early retirement look like for you now? I mean, the caveat being, if at all.

I mean, is it really early retirement?

Mr Nomad Numbers: Yeah, no, I think it’s always a good question to ask. I’m sure people have different answer to it. I think for us it’s really living the life, it’s more okay, now we don’t have to worry about.

Finance and so all [00:42:00] of just going to work and spending all of that time working for someone else. So now we have the freedom to do what we do, like I was mentioning earlier with the fire and all of that. So for us it has been a few things. So learn how to live as a couple 24 7. We got married two years after we met, so pretty early, but we were still working the first two years.

So we went from two years of working and seeing each other. Like most people do, a couple of hours every day and more on weekends to 24 7. So that was interesting to make those adjustments and having our own space and dealing with that. So far we managed to do it.

And then it’s also, , figuring out what we want outta life now that we have all of that time. It’s basically the questions that the regular retire, I’m sure are trying to think about when they reach 65. And they say, okay, so now what do we do? They might have kids, they might be out of the house.

Now they get to connect together as a couple. So, we are still on this. I think on that part we’re thinking more, slowing even further, as I was saying, and potentially having our own base to kind of [00:43:00] build the community. I think it has been I mean, slow travel has lot of positive things, but I think community trying to build the long-term committee is kind of a change because by definition you kind of move.

I mean, you travel, so you kind of move a little bit. So we’re thinking much more in like half of the time, four to six months in one place where we would come back every year. So we will have, create a community around this and then still do the travel for all of the benefits I was mentioning. So I think what’s, the first five years was about traveling, exploring a bunch.

I think the next five years will probably be about slowing down further funding that day is developing that community. And I think that’s, so far we thought, I don’t know what’s gonna be the next five years. I think we see those are like, kind of chapters in our lives, , so we’ll see.

Captain Fi: That’s pretty exciting.

I love the idea of having chapters or like seasons of your life and that’s the beauty is you’ve got the freedom now you can figure it out. You can take as it comes. That’s been a big

Mr Nomad Numbers: thing I’m trying to focus on. Oh, and one actually, one, one more thing I forgot is just ’cause of that the freedom.

You kind of tried to [00:44:00] experiment. I think I initially, I think on the first year of our journey, I was telling to Mrs. Nomad Numbers she was in that phase when she had that trauma job. She quit it after a few months because she saw that I was having so much fun exploring and she was kind of stuck in our working space, trying to work during the day when I was, I don’t know, swimming and doing all of those things during the week.

I was telling us, don’t try to force too much on you. What’s going to bring you that life purpose? I think it’s, we come to you through experimenting. So here for instance, we’re in Taiwan. We have been, I’ve been looking into tea a lot ’cause Taiwan grow tea and they’re already well known for tea.

So going to tea events and all of that stuff. Or there’s like a strong bargain committee so you could just get to experiment stuff in the local place you are. And yeah, I think for experimentation something will stick. Something will not stick until you find what you like. I think it’s. So much I think of things we lack, we don’t know of them yet, I feel, so you have just to get out there and try new things and then when something stick, then sure you will know it sticks and [00:45:00] then you will just put your soul and energy into it and make it a business or make it like something you want to dedicate your life for.

Captain Fi: Yeah, I think that’s awesome advice, man. Thanks for sharing. Uh, ’cause you, you don’t know what you don’t know, so it’s important to get out there and try stuff. Exactly. , it’s funny man. Like I’m forcing myself to get out and try new things as well. I tend to be a little bit stuck in my routine.

It is odd.

Mr Nomad Numbers: It’s really odd. It’s especially for us as a couple and because we travel like I say, quite often because every month. Now we’re ine for six months. So because we’ve been here during the pandemic and kind of, we have residency here, but last year we were like, every month we’re moving.

So you cannot really, one month actually, even though it’s a lot of time, you don’t really build any friendship during that time because by the time you potentially meet someone already two weeks in and then you have to leave. So it’s really hard when you travel, I think for you because you’re much more on base.

It might be a bit easier, but yeah, I think you have to put an effort. It’s not easy.

Captain Fi: the community aspect is a huge part of our, mental wellbeing. And I found that even the fire [00:46:00] community has been bloody awesome. I’ve met a lot of really good friends now through it.

, but also just little things from home base, like volunteering, so going to the, community gardens and working with the shelters with animals, it’s a lot of fun. Honestly everything’s kind of a bit of a balance really.

I love the concept of having a home base and, maybe traveling six months of the year or something like that, but hey we’ll find out what works for us when we get to it. I guess, a big thing that I’ve been shifting my focus to is, living in the moment or trying to be, I guess, a bit more mindful and enjoy the present because I definitely spent a lot of time focusing, on the future and worrying about things and, finances and that.

So yeah, it’s been a nice opportunity to slow

Mr Nomad Numbers: down, but.

Because food travel went to Thailand, Chiang Mai, we met with Monk. ’cause the Buddhism in Thailand is really strong and they were teaching us meditation. They say, oh yeah, let’s do, that was a free class. We did the first one day, like [00:47:00] introduction things and we love it so much that then we went to a Silent Street retreat with them for couple of days and that was like definitely centering us.

Taking a moment to pose, you don’t speak. You might have done some of those, but it was like opening ourself. It was a good example actually of things that we didn’t know about that what was really meditation, because we knew about meditation using those apps, but it’s more oh, they don’t really teach you.

And it’s more like a market. I mean, it works, but you don’t really get all of the context and where it came from. So being taught meditation from the Buddhism perspective, which is like where some of that definitely come from, was definitely changing our approach. And so every morning we try to, Kind of mindfulness or meditation before we get into our device and all of that.

And yeah, we not have been to Thailand, I don’t think we’d have got that experience and we probably not realize how much it’s important to . Be in the present, meditate, be grateful for the life we have Oh,

Captain Fi: absolutely. Have you heard j l Collins’ guided [00:48:00] meditation for when the stock market is dropping?

Mr Nomad Numbers: . Yes. Yeah, that sounds

Captain Fi: amazing. Oh, it’s so good. I was just chatting to him the other day and . I brought it up and I just said, mate it’s awesome. I thought it was a piss take, but it’s actually really good.

Mr Nomad Numbers: It’s , very applicable these days we’ve done five years ago, went.

We’re not done with the recession. Likely things might get worse, but still our portfolio has been going, are still much higher than it was in 2018 when we left and it was already a conservative approach. So we’re not really worried that we’re going to run out of money. So we see the news, but we don’t struggle as much.

Captain Fi: Oh yeah. The news is just

Mr Nomad Numbers: crap. Yeah. We are, I was able writing on this topic that we don’t even check the news. I mean, checking the news in the US or in most countries, super negativity. So you start your day, increase your stress for no reason, make you publicly messed up your day.

 I don’t even know what’s going on in the US right now. And some people might. Yeah, agree. I mean, I think something will happen. We’ll it but day to news is so much noise and so [00:49:00] much crap. I just stop and I haven’t felt any better since then.

Captain Fi: I used to have to keep a pretty close eye on, well definitely local events to destinations that I was flying to and we would get briefed by work, and yeah, we’d always be keeping an eye out. ’cause sometimes when stuff hits the news, that would result in us having to work. So yeah, we would always try and keep an eye on it and it certainly has this insidious effect where it does cause a bit of this anxiety. And yeah, I think media, this particular news headlines and stuff, there’s, a lot of money to be made and selling doom and gloom.

So it’s just, yeah, I personally find it a lot easier to just disengage the low information diets the way to go. Totally.

. So look the next couple of questions I wanna ask people hate ’em, right? Because they’re difficult ones , to answer, but I always ask them because I think it’s really important that when we meet and listen to successful people that have sort of achieved what we wanna achieve by looking at, what are they reading, what are they listening to what are the resources that they’re using for education [00:50:00] that’s really helpful for us on our financial journey.

Now I know you mentioned j l Collins a couple of times, and obviously he’s. The godfather of personal finance and an awesome author, the Simple Path to Wealth is a awesome book and a great web series. And you mentioned that’s been a huge impact for you going to the Chitaqua. , it sounds like it was absolutely life changing for , you and your wife.

Do you have any other books that you might recommend people read?

Mr Nomad Numbers: So I think Health, it’s a topic that we’re really focused into. So , I think the Plant Paradox may be a good one to start with. It’s from Dr. Steven Gundry. my wife picked up that book initially because she has a autoimmune condition long story short, her gut was messed up and I feel like you’re aware of gut health.

 So she has to revisit everything she was eating to fix that issue because the traditional medicine was telling them. So she was basically starting losing her air because her autoimmune was super active and starting at taking her own [00:51:00] body cells. And the only treatment was steroid injection locally on the scale to kind of, reduce the autoimmune response, which was not really fixing the root cause, just fixing the symptoms.

So she said no to that and she went to her own journey. So long short, the Plant Paradox is one of those books that kind of reset what you think you know about food. So this one explained to you that even some of the plants. That we think are good for us can be bad because they carry what’s called a lectins kind of a protein, which they use most of them are on the seeds or on the surface of the skin to protect themselves from animals and predator, not treat them until they’re already and ripe.

So, in our modern society, we used to eat those fruits. So some of those are like ade like tomatoes eggplants potatoes and a few. So, it’s really interesting to know that even the things that you think are good for you, like plants and vegetables, some of them are definitely not equal to each other.

So [00:52:00] that’s a really good one. And as a follow-up, he has the longevity paradox, which it’s explaining how to live longer and what are kind of good hack in terms of the food you eat. So those two books together can be interesting as well.

Captain Fi: Awesome, great recommendations. I actually haven’t read those, so I am looking forward to, having a read.

I know nightshades like tomatoes and eggplant potato have been, and contentious topic. Some people , get really sick when they eat ’em. I’ve personally haven’t had any issues with them, but yeah, I definitely wanna read into it and see what the go is.

Mr Nomad Numbers: I think it’s those things that they might not kill you they won’t kill you tomorrow, but over a long period of time they will just inflame your gut.

And for me it’s the same. I grew up on eggplants and rattatouille and all of the ratta is basically a nine chain bomb. It’s to tomato, eggplants, zucchini and all of that stuff combined together. But I’ve been fine. So, again I’m just aware of it and I know that. We should not eat as much. But I still try to enjoy life as well.

 But , for my wife, [00:53:00] definitely she will get that sickness. So for her it’s, at least now she knows why.

Captain Fi: So it’s good. Yes. Super important. Health is obviously a major part of your life and Yeah. There’s heaps really good health related books, like I found the China Study by Dr. Colin Campbell to be really life changing.

And also Michael Pollen has got a number of awesome books and I know we’re gonna talk about it when I’m gonna do the nomad interview with you guys but how to change your mind when he talks about the use of psychedelics like that. It was game changer for me. But also his book in Defense of Food is great.

But yeah, I’m gonna check out the Plant Paradox as soon as we get off the call. Actually, I’m gonna, oh, cool. , have a look at the library and rent one. I gotta force myself to rent books, so I tend to buy them and I know it’s a bit wasteful, so, are you a podcast guy?

Do you enjoy listening to podcasts?

Mr Nomad Numbers: Yeah, I really like podcasts because I can consume them easily especially when I’m on, biking or doing all of that. So, recommendation on those. So Bilio, which is the guy that [00:54:00] funded that company called Quest and become billionaire of it starting Podcast.

On podcast. His podcasts are mostly focused on interviewing successful people, but a section of his podcast is called Relationship Theory, and that’s him and his wife Lisa, which have conversation about their relationship. And I found that would be super eye-opening for us in our relationship as well.

 So we were listening to that one together and then through the podcast ever we stop or at the end we chat about it. And that’s really good for couples. , so I really like that one. Peter Atia, because I’m into the longevity bio stuff, he has a very long form podcast called The Drive.

We spoke about is a doctor and go very deep into things that we should do to live longer or the latest discoveries in the field of medicine. All of those protein and stuff. So it’s. It’s a bit naughty, but if you interesting to longevity, I think it’s a good one. And lately I stumbled into Lex Friedman podcast and that has been also really good.

He has really high caliber [00:55:00] people like Mark Zuckerberg went there twice, Elon Musk, and again, very long form interview. And so like, when I say long form, like two to three hours interview. So , those are some of the ones that’ve been lately consuming.

Captain Fi: Oh, I actually haven’t heard of of the Lex Redden podcast.

 I’ll probably live under a rock. But yeah, I’m gonna check it out. I’ll put links in the show notes to all of those books and podcasts as well. Hey, look it’s been awesome chatting. I’ve really appreciated it. I know we’ve probably covered this during the session, but just , so there’s absolutely no ambiguity.

What are your top three bits of advice for someone pursuing financial independence?

Mr Nomad Numbers: Okay. So I think the first one would be to educate yourself about financial independence, to commit to a plan and just to adapt along the way , once you are there. I think that’s really important.

 I feel a lot of people, at least ourself, we didn’t know what financial independence was until we stumble into it by accident. But once you understand and you came up with a plan, [00:56:00] I think you can just get there much faster than most people. But also keep in mind that FI is much more a tool like a mean to an end.

So it’s not going to fix your life. So everything that has to do with self-actualization, what you want to become the portrait of happiness, trying to.

Things like service or like FI will just give you that armor to make it easier for you to do, but you still have to figure out what the definition to those questions are for you. And last but not least if you push FI, just make sure you know why you do that before you reach there. I think a lot of people look at FI as a destination, but it’s not really a destination thing.

Just like I said, it is just a tool. You have to figure out what your destination is because once you are financially independent, you just have more time for yourself. So if you, what to do with your time or if you dunno what you wanna do in your life, fi is not really gonna answer.

Captain Fi: As Vicki Robbins said, famously fi [00:57:00] is just the beginning. Exactly. Oh, that’s a good one. Ah, she’s a and very inspiring woman. Look, thanks so much for coming on the show today, mate. It’s been an absolute blast. I’ve had a great time learning about slow travel and I think that’s probably the way I’m gonna look at traveling in the future is, at giving that at least one month or more , to check out an area.

And I think I’ll have to check out the Nomad purse for my next trip.

Mr Nomad Numbers: Sure, yeah. Lemme know if you have feedback. I’ll

Captain Fi: Hey, is there anything else you’d want to talk about today that we didn’t bring up?

Mr Nomad Numbers: I think we covered a bunch, so, I think it’s pretty good.

Captain Fi: Awesome. Where can listeners find out more about you or nomad numbers?

Mr Nomad Numbers: So I think the easiest way is just to go to our blog, which is number numbers.com, and if you sign up for our free newsletter then you can just switch back to you for newsletter, I think, and you get up to date to whatever contents we are putting out there.

Captain Fi: Awesome. I’ll make sure to leave that in the show notes.

Put links to all of those books, [00:58:00] podcasts things that we’ve mentioned today, and of course how you can get in touch with nomad numbers on their vlog. Again, Mr. Nomad numbers, thanks so much for coming, mate. Had an absolute blast and look forward to hearing about your travel updates in the future.

Mr Nomad Numbers: Perfect. And thank you again so much for taking the time to speak with SM.

Captain Fi: Oh my pleasure, mate. Catch you around. See you.

Mr Nomad Numbers: Bye.

Captain Fi: Thanks for listening to another episode of the Captain FY Financial Independence Podcast. To read the transcripts or check out the show notes, head over to www.captainfy.com for all the details. If you have a question for the captain, make sure to get in touch. You might even make it on the airwaves. You can reach me online through the Captain Fire contact form or get in touch through the socials.

I’m active on Facebook and Instagram, as well as a number of online finance and investing [00:59:00] forums. And finally, remember the information presented on the show and the links provided are for general information purposes only. They should not be taken as constituting professional financial advice. You should always do your own research when making any financial decisions and make sure it’s appropriate for your personal circumstance.

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